There are 15 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1.1. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: s gordon 1.2. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: Brent Ledger 1.3. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: Nate Hendley 1.4. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: peter gorrie 1.5. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: Leslie Smith 1.6. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: peter gorrie 1.7. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: Patricia Pearson 1.8. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: Nate Hendley 1.9. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor From: David Hayes 2.1. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism From: Denise_Balkissoon 2.2. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism From: Denise_Balkissoon 2.3. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism From: Denise_Balkissoon 2.4. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism From: Denise_Balkissoon 2.5. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism From: David Hayes 2.6. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism From: Lisa Bendall Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1.1. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:54 am ((EST)) At least Jay Somerset is frank enough to expose his real animus toward Ms Wente: "because we don't respect Wente or even think of her as an original thinker."  I guess the plagiarism is just a convenient opportunity to diss her on ideological ground.       Sheldon Gordon Independent Business & Legal Writer 416.787.9971 http://ca.linkedin.com/in/sheldongordon Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2012, 11:32 AM   I think we'd be much more shocked if a Jeffrey Simpson was accused of plagiarism, and that what most of us are saying is, "gotcha" because we don't respect Wente or even think of her as an original thinker. A good writer, perhaps, but more antagonizing than thought-provoking. It's Wente's relentless, arrogant, and often ignorant stance, not to mention her non-apology, that's causing such viral vitriol. It's like when Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a hooker. The plagiarism is almost secondary to the real charge, that we simply don't believe her or take her seriously. Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:16:26 AM Subject: RE: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor << a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction.>>  My sentiments exactly. What?s with this new witch-hunting ethos surrounding plagiarism? Different eras had quite different sensibilities. In the Renaissance era, for instance, it was common practice for composers to use a bass line from another composer?s work as a framework for a new piece of music. It was considered an honour to have one?s work ?plagiarized? in this manner. While I?m On Behalf Of Leslie Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor    ?Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some,? Patricia Pearson, tfew listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its source ? although I?m sure if I went online I?d be able to come up with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing at some time. Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with Patricia by writing ?ditto,? which is well under the required seven words that constitute plagiarism. Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week ? and well-written the New York Times this year, they were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind.The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.2. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:17 pm ((EST)) I have enormous respect for Wente. And not just for her insane three-columns a week productivity. Columnists like Simpson may offer a more thought-provoking analysis of current issues but Wente taps into the zeitgeist and articulates thoughts and feelings that are just under the surface of Canadian society. That's what makes her so provoking and so readable. I'll take a Wente column any day over this nutsy nitpicking of her methodology. Brent On 26/09/2012 11:32 AM, Jay Somerset wrote: > > > I think we'd be much more shocked if a Jeffrey Simpson was accused of > plagiarism, and that what most of us are saying is, "gotcha" because > we don't respect Wente or even think of her as an original thinker. A > good writer, perhaps, but more antagonizing than thought-provoking. > > It's Wente's relentless, arrogant, and often ignorant stance, not to > mention her non-apology, that's causing such viral vitriol. It's like > when Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a hooker. The plagiarism is almost > secondary to the real charge, that we simply don't believe her or take > her seriously. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:16:26 AM > *Subject:* RE: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor > > > > < over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her > for such a small, very human, infraction.>> > My sentiments exactly. What?s with this new witch-hunting ethos > surrounding plagiarism? Different eras had quite different > sensibilities. In the Renaissance era, for instance, it was common > practice for composers to use a bass line from another composer?s work > as a framework for a new piece of music. It was considered an honour > to have one?s work ?plagiarized? in this manner. While I?m not > advocating a return to this way of doing things, I think the > plagiarism pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction. > G. > *Leslie Smith > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:49 AM > *Subject:* Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor > ?Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, > so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for > arguments and wound up borrowing some,? Patricia Pearson, tfew > listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its > source ? although I?m sure if I went online I?d be able to come up > with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing > at some time. > Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with > Patricia by writing ?ditto,? which is well under the required seven > words that constitute plagiarism. > Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how > hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week ? > and well-written ones at that, whether you agree with Wente or not on > the subjects ? is a hell of a workload. To quote Stephen Colbert, a > tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over > several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for > such a small, very human, infraction. > -Leslie Smith > *Sent:*Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:05 PM > *Subject:*Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor > "Maybe what will come out of all this is a kind of plagiarism > protecting hyper-linking prose style that only really works on the > internet." > I think that's really true, and I see this whole affair in that light. > The old media can't keep pace with the new -- not only in terms of not > being able to hyperlink everything, but also in not understanding the > collaoborative, dialoguing scrutiny going on. You don't get to preach > down from the pulpit anymore. > When I wrote a couple of Op-Eds for the New York Times this year, they > were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware > of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has > really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia > Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind. > The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have > an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised > that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. > We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't > ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll start > borrowing shit. If I were writing for Slate or Salon that would be > fine, cuz I'd be hyperlinking. > -- Patricia > Patricia Pearson > www.pearsonspost.com/wp > > > > > > > Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.3. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:25 pm ((EST)) the entire argument about plagiarism and borrowing and cut and paste could have been avoided if Wente did more original research ... actually interviewing people instead of borrowing their comments and content Nate Hendley ----- Original Message ----- From: Brent Ledger Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor I have enormous respect for Wente. And not just for her insane three-columns a week productivity. Columnists like Simpson may offer a more thought-provoking analysis of current issues but Wente taps into the zeitgeist and articulates thoughts and feelings that are just under the surface of Canadian society. That's what makes her so provoking and so readable. I'll take a Wente column any day over this nutsy nitpicking of her methodology. Brent On 26/09/2012 11:32 AM, Jay Somerset wrote: I think we'd be much more shocked if a Jeffrey Simpson was accused of plagiarism, and that what most of us are saying is, "gotcha" because we don't respect Wente or even think of her as an original thinker. A good writer, perhaps, but more antagonizing than thought-provoking. It's Wente's relentless, arrogant, and often ignorant stance, not to mention her non-apology, that's causing such viral vitriol. It's like when Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a hooker. The plagiarism is almost secondary to the real charge, that we simply don't believe her or take her seriously. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:16:26 AM Subject: RE: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor << a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction.>> My sentiments exactly. What?s with this new witch-hunting ethos surrounding plagiarism? Different eras had quite different sensibilities. In the Renaissance era, for instance, it was common practice for composers to use a bass line from another composer?s work as a framework for a new piece of music. It was considered an honour to have one?s work ?plagiarized? in this manner. While I?m not advocating a return to this way of doing things, I think the plagiarism pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction. G. Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor ?Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some,? Patricia Pearson, tfew listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its source ? although I?m sure if I went online I?d be able to come up with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing at some time. Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with Patricia by writing ?ditto,? which is well under the required seven words that constitute plagiarism. Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week ? and well-written ones at that, whether you agree with Wente or not on the subjects ? is a hell of a workload. To quote Stephen Colbert, a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction. -Leslie Smith From: Patricia Pearson Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor "Maybe what will come out of all this is a kind of plagiarism protecting hyper-linking prose style that only really works on the internet." I think that's really true, and I see this whole affair in that light. The old media can't keep pace with the new -- not only in terms of not being able to hyperlink everything, but also in not understanding the collaoborative, dialoguing scrutiny going on. You don't get to preach down from the pulpit anymore. When I wrote a couple of Op-Eds for the New York Times this year, they were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind. The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll start borrowing shit. If I were writing for Slate or Salon that would be fine, cuz I'd be hyperlinking. -- Patricia Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.4. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:48 pm ((EST)) This is becoming quite funny.-"Three columns a week is too onerous to be done properly." Lots of writers manage three, or more, of high quality, but if she can't handle it, better to do fewer and do them well. -"Columnists like Simpson may offer a more thought-provoking analysis of current issues but Wente taps into the zeitgeist and articulates thoughts and feelings that are just under the surface of Canadian society. That's what makes her so provoking and so readable." As in, facts, accuracy and reason don't matter. Just toss out provocative bones to either confirm some people's prejudices or get others' blood boiling. Just so long as they react. Peter Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:51:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Wente's error at the Globe has had ripple effects on her career. Today Jian Gomeshi announced that she's no longer part of his Q media panel. http://www.cbc.ca/q/blog/2012/09/25/statement-on-margaret-wente-and-qs-media-panel/ We'll see if they can find someone else who brings provocation and controversy to the Tuesday morning timeslot. - Jess Ross ?Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some,? Patricia Pearson, tfew listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its source ? although I?m sure if I went online I?d be able to come up with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing at some time. Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with Patricia by writing ?ditto,? which is well under the required seven words that constitute plagiarism. Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week ? and well-written ones at that, whether you agree with Wente or not on the subjects ? is a hell of a workload. To quote Stephen Colbert, a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction. -Leslie Smith From: Patricia Pearson Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor "Maybe what will come out of all this is a kind of plagiarism protecting hyper-linking prose style that only really works on the internet." I think that's really true, and I see this whole affair in that light. The old media can't keep pace with the new -- not only in terms of not being able to hyperlink everything, but also in not understanding the collaoborative, dialoguing scrutiny going on. You don't get to preach down from the pulpit anymore. When I wrote a couple of Op-Eds for the New York Times this year, they were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind. The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll start borrowing shit. If I were writing for Slate or Salon that would be fine, cuz I'd be hyperlinking. -- Patricia Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.5. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:53 pm ((EST)) I read Wente pretty much every time out; Jeffrey Simpson to me is a cold, boring fish ? I rarely look at his stuff and I?m not much moved by it when I do. Could this be another instance of the female being damned for offering a more emotional riposte, whereas the male is lauded for being ?rational? in his arguments? All I know is that no man or woman ever went to war for ?rational? reasons. Hoo-rah, Leslie Smith From: Brent Ledger Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor I have enormous respect for Wente. And not just for her insane three-columns a week productivity. Columnists like Simpson may offer a more thought-provoking analysis of current issues but Wente taps into the zeitgeist and articulates thoughts and feelings that are just under the surface of Canadian society. That's what makes her so provoking and so readable. I'll take a Wente column any day over this nutsy nitpicking of her methodology. Brent On 26/09/2012 11:32 AM, Jay Somerset wrote: I think we'd be much more shocked if a Jeffrey Simpson was accused of plagiarism, and that what most of us are saying is, "gotcha" because we don't respect Wente or even think of her as an original thinker. A good writer, perhaps, but more antagonizing than thought-provoking. It's Wente's relentless, arrogant, and often ignorant stance, not to mention her non-apology, that's causing such viral vitriol. It's like when Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a hooker. The plagiarism is almost secondary to the real charge, that we simply don't believe her or take her seriously. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:16:26 AM Subject: RE: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor << a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction.>> My sentiments exactly. What?s with this new witch-hunting ethos surrounding plagiarism? Different eras had quite different sensibilities. In the Renaissance era, for instance, it was common practice for composers to use a bass line from another composer?s work as a framework for a new piece of music. It was considered an honour to have one?s work ?plagiarized? in this manner. While I?m not advocating a return to this way of doing things, I think the plagiarism pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction. G. Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor ?Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some,? Patricia Pearson, tfew listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its source ? although I?m sure if I went online I?d be able to come up with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing at some time. Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with Patricia by writing ?ditto,? which is well under the required seven words that constitute plagiarism. Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week ? and well-written ones at that, whether you agree with Wente or not on the subjects ? is a hell of a workload. To quote Stephen Colbert, a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction. -Leslie Smith From: Patricia Pearson Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor "Maybe what will come out of all this is a kind of plagiarism protecting hyper-linking prose style that only really works on the internet." I think that's really true, and I see this whole affair in that light. The old media can't keep pace with the new -- not only in terms of not being able to hyperlink everything, but also in not understanding the collaoborative, dialoguing scrutiny going on. You don't get to preach down from the pulpit anymore. When I wrote a couple of Op-Eds for the New York Times this year, they were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind. The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll start borrowing shit. If I were writing for Slate or Salon that would be fine, cuz I'd be hyperlinking. -- Patricia Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.6. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:57 pm ((EST)) Now I'm getting confused.Are we supposed to admire Wente because she writes in the sort of style that incites men and women to go to war -- rather than find a more rational solution??? Peter Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:53:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor I read Wente pretty much every time out; Jeffrey Simpson to me is a cold, boring fish ? I rarely look at his stuff and I?m not much moved by it when I do. Could this be another instance of the female being damned for offering a more emotional riposte, whereas the male is lauded for being ?rational? in his arguments? All I know is that no man or woman ever went to war for ?rational? reasons. Hoo-rah, Leslie Smith From: Brent Ledger Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor I have enormous respect for Wente. And not just for her insane three-columns a week productivity. Columnists like Simpson may offer a more thought-provoking analysis of current issues but Wente taps into the zeitgeist and articulates thoughts and feelings that are just under the surface of Canadian society. That's what makes her so provoking and so readable. I'll take a Wente column any day over this nutsy nitpicking of her methodology. Brent On 26/09/2012 11:32 AM, Jay Somerset wrote: I think we'd be much more shocked if a Jeffrey Simpson was accused of plagiarism, and that what most of us are saying is, "gotcha" because we don't respect Wente or even think of her as an original thinker. A good writer, perhaps, but more antagonizing than thought-provoking. It's Wente's relentless, arrogant, and often ignorant stance, not to mention her non-apology, that's causing such viral vitriol. It's like when Jimmy Swaggart was caught with a hooker. The plagiarism is almost secondary to the real charge, that we simply don't believe her or take her seriously. Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 11:16:26 AM Subject: RE: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor << a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction.>> My sentiments exactly. What?s with this new witch-hunting ethos surrounding plagiarism? Different eras had quite different sensibilities. In the Renaissance era, for instance, it was common practice for composers to use a bass line from another composer?s work as a framework for a new piece of music. It was considered an honour to have one?s work ?plagiarized? in this manner. While I?m not advocating a return to this way of doing things, I think the plagiarism pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction. G. Of Leslie Smith Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor ?Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some,? Patricia Pearson, tfew listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its source ? although I?m sure if I went online I?d be able to come up with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing at some time. Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with Patricia by writing ?ditto,? which is well under the required seven words that constitute plagiarism. Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week ? and well-written ones at that, whether you agree with Wente or not on the subjects ? is a hell of a workload. To quote Stephen Colbert, a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction. -Leslie Smith From: Patricia Pearson Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor "Maybe what will come out of all this is a kind of plagiarism protecting hyper-linking prose style that only really works on the internet." I think that's really true, and I see this whole affair in that light. The old media can't keep pace with the new -- not only in terms of not being able to hyperlink everything, but also in not understanding the collaoborative, dialoguing scrutiny going on. You don't get to preach down from the pulpit anymore. When I wrote a couple of Op-Eds for the New York Times this year, they were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind. The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll start borrowing shit. If I were writing for Slate or Salon that would be fine, cuz I'd be hyperlinking. -- Patricia Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.7. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:59 pm ((EST)) Since I started the three-columns-a-week meme, allow me to clarify that I wasn't referring to a workload, I was referring to generating original OPINIONS three times a week. The Onion once had a headline, "Drunken Man Makes Interesting Point About Society." Nobody can sound interesting three times a week. The NY Times columnists either write less than that, or they get around the challenge by REPORTING on stuff, which I believe is what Nate was saying. Unless it was Peter. I'm losing track? Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.8. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:02 pm ((EST)) it was me who suggested Wente could have saved herself a lot of grief by doing more original reporting ... the columnist who really awes me is Rosie DiManno, who seems to have no problem cranking out news, features and opinion pieces on an almost daily basis, all with original reportage Naet ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Pearson Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Since I started the three-columns-a-week meme, allow me to clarify that I wasn't referring to a workload, I was referring to generating original OPINIONS three times a week. The Onion once had a headline, "Drunken Man Makes Interesting Point About Society." Nobody can sound interesting three times a week. The NY Times columnists either write less than that, or they get around the challenge by REPORTING on stuff, which I believe is what Nate was saying. Unless it was Peter. I'm losing track? Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ 1.9. Re: Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:06 pm ((EST)) It does seem hard but, you know, newspaper columnists have been managing this kind of input for most of the 20th century. Murray Kempton, the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who worked for the Long Island-based Newsday, wrote 4 columns a week for most of his career. Walter Lippmann, Jimmy Breslin, Art Buchwald, Russell Baker... they all wrote at least 3 or more a week in their prime. I, too, am amazed & can't imagine how you do it but I'm a magazine feature writer who also does book-length stuff. I write a column for the Star but it runs once every 2 weeks! (And I sometimes find that a strain.) Still, I know newspaper columnists have done it, & still do. -- david -----Original Message----- Smith Sent: September-26-12 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor "Nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some," Patricia Pearson, tfew listserv, 15 Sept., 2012. I have properly attributed this quote to its source - although I'm sure if I went online I'd be able to come up with an instance of somebody somewhere who said exactly the same thing at some time. Not wanting to be found at fault myself, I will simply agree with Patricia by writing "ditto," which is well under the required seven words that constitute plagiarism. Three columns per week was the fact that most impressed me. I know how hard it is coming up with ideas for a weekly column. Three a week - and well-written ones at that, whether you agree with Wente or not on the subjects - is a hell of a workload. To quote Stephen Colbert, a tip of my hat to any writer who can pull this off consistently, over several years, and a wag of my finger at those who would damn her for such a small, very human, infraction. -Leslie Smith Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 11:05 PM Subject: Re: [tfew] Wente, Stead and the role of the public editor "Maybe what will come out of all this is a kind of plagiarism protecting hyper-linking prose style that only really works on the internet." I think that's really true, and I see this whole affair in that light. The old media can't keep pace with the new -- not only in terms of not being able to hyperlink everything, but also in not understanding the collaoborative, dialoguing scrutiny going on. You don't get to preach down from the pulpit anymore. When I wrote a couple of Op-Eds for the New York Times this year, they were incredibly hypervigilant about my facts because they're so aware of their online comments from super-smart critics. The Globe has really fallen out of date in this respect, and it appears that Sylvia Stead and Margaret Wente are particularly behind. The other thing I think is that nobody can plausibly be asked to have an opinion three times a week, so I am not even remotely surprised that Wente was scrambling for arguments and wound up borrowing some. We need to reevaluate the whole point and service of punditry. Don't ask me to reiterate that point two more times this week. I'll start borrowing shit. If I were writing for Slate or Salon that would be fine, cuz I'd be hyperlinking. -- Patricia Patricia Pearson www.pearsonspost.com/wp Messages in this topic (40) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2.1. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:12 pm ((EST)) Stephen, I have to say I'm pretty frustrated by the minimizing of this incident to "one article from three years ago." It's not one line in one piece, and it's incorrect for you to say so, or for Tim Harper to say so in the Star. His "there but for the grace of God" column is wrong, in my opinion: yes, everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But that's not what happened here. What's been exposed is an obvious pattern of poor journalism. Last year, I read the Media Culpa blog when it showed that Wente had lifted the "John" character off of an Obama 2012 website and used "him" as an example to illustrate her points about Occupy. I'm embarrassed now to say that what I did at the time is remark "she's such a hack" to my partner and move on. Opinion and quality are two separate issues. Margaret Wente does enjoy stirring up a firestorm. You can like that because it provides entertaining reading, or because you tend to agree with her. You can also consider her a troll. But how one feels about the opinions she presents is a separate issue from how respectable and solid her journalism is. No matter how I feel about Rosie DiManno's opinions, my underlying evaluation of her work is that she goes to the Congo, to Libya, and reports the heck out of whatever story she's on. Wente couldn't be bothered to grab a cab chit and head over to King St. to talk to a real Occupier. What she did with "John" isn't plagiarizing - it's full scale making shit up. It was my mistake to write that off last year because I'm used to being irritated/appalled by her work as a whole. If you think Wente's discipline has been sufficient, that's your opinion to have. But that the scandal is larger than one incident is a fact. Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2.2. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:13 pm ((EST)) Stephen, I have to say I'm pretty frustrated by the minimizing of this incident to "one article from three years ago." It's not one line in one piece, and it's incorrect for you to say so, or for Tim Harper to say so in the Star. His "there but for the grace of God" column is wrong, in my opinion: yes, everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But that's not what happened here. What's been exposed is an obvious pattern of poor journalism. Last year, I read the Media Culpa blog when it showed that Wente had lifted the "John" character off of an Obama 2012 website and used "him" as an example to illustrate her points about Occupy. I'm embarrassed now to say that what I did at the time is remark "she's such a hack" to my partner and move on. Opinion and quality are two separate issues. Margaret Wente does enjoy stirring up a firestorm. You can like that because it provides entertaining reading, or because you tend to agree with her. You can also consider her a troll. But how one feels about the opinions she presents is a separate issue from how respectable and solid her journalism is. No matter how I feel about Rosie DiManno's opinions, my underlying evaluation of her work is that she goes to the Congo, to Libya, and reports the heck out of whatever story she's on. Wente couldn't be bothered to grab a cab chit and head over to King St. to talk to a real Occupier. What she did with "John" isn't plagiarizing - it's full scale making shit up. It was my mistake to write that off last year because I'm used to being irritated/appalled by her work as a whole. If you think Wente's discipline has been sufficient, that's your opinion to have. But that the scandal is larger than one incident is a fact. Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2.3. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:15 pm ((EST)) Stephen, I have to say I'm pretty frustrated by the minimizing of this incident to "one article from three years ago." It's not one line in one piece, and it's incorrect for you to say so, or for Tim Harper to say so in the Star. His "there but for the grace of God" column is wrong, in my opinion: yes, everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But that's not what happened here. What's been exposed is an obvious pattern of poor journalism. Last year, I read the Media Culpa blog when it showed that Wente had lifted the "John" character off of an Obama 2012 website and used "him" as an example to illustrate her points about Occupy. I'm embarrassed now to say that what I did at the time is remark "she's such a hack" to my partner and move on. Opinion and quality are two separate issues. Margaret Wente does enjoy stirring up a firestorm. You can like that because it provides entertaining reading, or because you tend to agree with her. You can also consider her a troll. But how one feels about the opinions she presents is a separate issue from how respectable and solid her journalism is. No matter how I feel about Rosie DiManno's opinions, my underlying evaluation of her work is that she goes to the Congo, to Libya, and reports the heck out of whatever story she's on. Wente couldn't be bothered to grab a cab chit and head over to King St. to talk to a real Occupier. What she did with "John" isn't plagiarizing - it's full scale making shit up. It was my mistake to write that off last year because I'm used to being irritated/appalled by her work as a whole. If you think Wente's discipline has been sufficient, that's your opinion to have. But that the scandal is larger than one incident is a fact. Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2.4. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:15 pm ((EST)) Why did that send so many times? Apologies! > > Stephen, I have to say I'm pretty frustrated by the minimizing of this incident to "one article from three years ago." It's not one line in one piece, and it's incorrect for you to say so, or for Tim Harper to say so in the Star. His "there but for the grace of God" column is wrong, in my opinion: yes, everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But that's not what happened here. What's been exposed is an obvious pattern of poor journalism. > > Last year, I read the Media Culpa blog when it showed that Wente had lifted the "John" character off of an Obama 2012 website and used "him" as an example to illustrate her points about Occupy. I'm embarrassed now to say that what I did at the time is remark "she's such a hack" to my partner and move on. > > Opinion and quality are two separate issues. Margaret Wente does enjoy stirring up a firestorm. You can like that because it provides entertaining reading, or because you tend to agree with her. You can also consider her a troll. But how one feels about the opinions she presents is a separate issue from how respectable and solid her journalism is. No matter how I feel about Rosie DiManno's opinions, my underlying evaluation of her work is that she goes to the Congo, to Libya, and reports the heck out of whatever story she's on. Wente couldn't be bothered to grab a cab chit and head over to King St. to talk to a real Occupier. What she did with "John" isn't plagiarizing - it's full scale making shit up. It was my mistake to write that off last year because I'm used to being irritated/appalled by her work as a whole. > > If you think Wente's discipline has been sufficient, that's your opinion to have. But that the scandal is larger than one incident is a fact. > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2.5. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:26 pm ((EST)) Hey, Denise, it was such a good post, I enjoyed reading it 3 times. -- david -----Original Message----- Denise_Balkissoon Sent: September-26-12 1:16 PM Subject: [tfew] Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Why did that send so many times? Apologies! > > Stephen, I have to say I'm pretty frustrated by the minimizing of this incident to "one article from three years ago." It's not one line in one piece, and it's incorrect for you to say so, or for Tim Harper to say so in the Star. His "there but for the grace of God" column is wrong, in my opinion: yes, everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But that's not what happened here. What's been exposed is an obvious pattern of poor journalism. > > Last year, I read the Media Culpa blog when it showed that Wente had lifted the "John" character off of an Obama 2012 website and used "him" as an example to illustrate her points about Occupy. I'm embarrassed now to say that what I did at the time is remark "she's such a hack" to my partner and move on. > > Opinion and quality are two separate issues. Margaret Wente does enjoy stirring up a firestorm. You can like that because it provides entertaining reading, or because you tend to agree with her. You can also consider her a troll. But how one feels about the opinions she presents is a separate issue from how respectable and solid her journalism is. No matter how I feel about Rosie DiManno's opinions, my underlying evaluation of her work is that she goes to the Congo, to Libya, and reports the heck out of whatever story she's on. Wente couldn't be bothered to grab a cab chit and head over to King St. to talk to a real Occupier. What she did with "John" isn't plagiarizing - it's full scale making shit up. It was my mistake to write that off last year because I'm used to being irritated/appalled by her work as a whole. > > If you think Wente's discipline has been sufficient, that's your opinion to have. But that the scandal is larger than one incident is a fact. > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2.6. Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Date: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:28 pm ((EST)) Ah, David, you always make me laugh. ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' L i s a B e n d a l l www.lisabendall.com Want to feel inspired? It's good for you... and good-humoured! Learn how to make a difference at www.50gooddeeds.com Like it on Facebook www.facebook.com/50gooddeeds _____ Hayes Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 1:27 PM Subject: RE: [tfew] Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Hey, Denise, it was such a good post, I enjoyed reading it 3 times. -- david -----Original Message----- Denise_Balkissoon Sent: September-26-12 1:16 PM Subject: [tfew] Re: Bob Dylan (and other poets and writers) and plagiarism Why did that send so many times? Apologies! > > Stephen, I have to say I'm pretty frustrated by the minimizing of this incident to "one article from three years ago." It's not one line in one piece, and it's incorrect for you to say so, or for Tim Harper to say so in the Star. His "there but for the grace of God" column is wrong, in my opinion: yes, everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But that's not what happened here. What's been exposed is an obvious pattern of poor journalism. > > Last year, I read the Media Culpa blog when it showed that Wente had lifted the "John" character off of an Obama 2012 website and used "him" as an example to illustrate her points about Occupy. I'm embarrassed now to say that what I did at the time is remark "she's such a hack" to my partner and move on. > > Opinion and quality are two separate issues. Margaret Wente does enjoy stirring up a firestorm. You can like that because it provides entertaining reading, or because you tend to agree with her. You can also consider her a troll. But how one feels about the opinions she presents is a separate issue from how respectable and solid her journalism is. No matter how I feel about Rosie DiManno's opinions, my underlying evaluation of her work is that she goes to the Congo, to Libya, and reports the heck out of whatever story she's on. Wente couldn't be bothered to grab a cab chit and head over to King St. to talk to a real Occupier. What she did with "John" isn't plagiarizing - it's full scale making shit up. It was my mistake to write that off last year because I'm used to being irritated/appalled by her work as a whole. > > If you think Wente's discipline has been sufficient, that's your opinion to have. But that the scandal is larger than one incident is a fact. > Messages in this topic (7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/tfew/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/tfew/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://ca.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms ------------------------------------------------------------------------